[MUSIC PLAYING]
All right, Pam, in this exercise,
you're gonna be my employee.
You're the director of business development for the Black Swan
Group.
You handle business development, and you're
making about $120,000 a year.
And you've decided that you want to make more money, OK?
So you walk in, sit down, open it up.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to meet with me.
You're welcome.
You know, what I'm coming to do
is to ask you for an increase in salary.
And I really would like to change
my title from director of business development to a VP,
I think.
It's kind of the natural progression.
How much of a raise would you like to get?
Well, right now, I'm making $120,000.
I'd like to be at $160,000.
$160,000, OK.
So I'll take a step back as a teacher.
Most employers look at employees as selfish people.
OK.
Because when they walk in the boss's office,
you never come walking in the boss's office
unless you want something for you.
So I'm gonna know, going in, if you made an appointment for me.
You didn't come in here to make my life better.
You came in here to ask me for something.
Right.
So how do I know that giving you a raise is gonna help me?
You don't.
You just think if you get an agreement on a price,
everything else would be lovely.
Right.
Which is a normal reaction from most people.
And that's how most people sink themselves in job negotiations.
They don't walk into the boss and say,
hey, how can I be more valuable to you?
Because when you say, how could I be more valuable to you,
suddenly that changes my perspective.
You didn't come in here to get something for yourself.
You actually came in here to make my life better.
That's a game-changing moment, initially.
Just by asking that kind of a question
or taking that kind of an approach--
Right.
--then it's immediately a different conversation.
Immediately, you're no longer a selfish employee
who came in here with her hand out, OK?
You put one hand, you put two hands out,
and willing to have one handful, you're
gonna put two hands out because you've
been told to ask for more than what you want, right?
Right.
Aim high is the big lie that's out there.
Aim high.
Now, how much do you know about my ability to pay you?
I don't.
You presume it's there.
Right.
But you don't know.
Right.
And you don't know how to make yourself more valuable.
Oh, right.
So how do you do that in a job negotiation?
You got to come in, first of all,
and find out am I living up to expectations?
How have I done?
How do I negotiate my success for the future?
Then you start talking about what that success is worth.
But terms make the deal in any negotiation,
especially in a job.
You know in advance that a lot of employers
might look at employees as selfish.
That in order to disarm that you might say, look,
I don't want you to think I'm selfish.
But instead of denying it, you want to say,
I'm gonna have a conversation with you
where I'm gonna seem very selfish.
That disarms that feeling from the very beginning.
It also warns me that this is a serious conversation.
OK, Pam, so let's reverse roles.
And I'll be the employee coming into your office,
and you will be the owner of the company.
OK, good.
All right.
Pam, thanks for making time for me today.
Sure.
I got something that you are not gonna want to hear.
OK.
How can I be guaranteed to be involved
in projects that are critical to the strategic future
of this company?
Well, I think if you want to take a leadership
role on some other projects, we should look into that.
And forgive me, this is gonna sound very selfish.
I'm not looking for mundane projects.
I want to get out up front on stuff
that makes a difference on everybody's behalf.
I mean, I think that would be great.
I'd love to hear anything that you have prepared or any ideas
that you have on how to get there.
I'd be happy to prepare some ideas.
What are some of our critical objectives?
You know, what are the top three objectives for the coming year?
Well, we need growth.
We need to bring in more accounts, as you know.
What type of accounts are we looking for?
Because, you know, some accounts are strategically more
valuable than others.
Right.
I'm thinking more high-end kind of accounts.
All right, so I'm gonna take a step back right now because not
knowing the business, you don't know what kind of high-end
accounts those are specifically.
Yeah, I don't want nickel and dime accounts.
But how does this conversation feel to you right now?
I don't even realize you're asking me for a raise.
Right.
Because I'm talking about our future.
Right.
Now, the compensation for that will
come after we talk about what's valuable
and how valuable it is.
Right.
And there will come a time when
I'm gonna ask for what my, quote,
"fair share," to use the F bomb, I'm gonna
want my fair share of that.
Right.
And what I'd offer to you-- and feel free to reject it--
is my current salary plus a percentage of the additional
value that's brought in.
If no additional value's brought in,
then there's no additional money.
I would like to add in, also, I'd
like to put you in a position to hire somebody to fill my spot.
Because if you promote me, we need somebody to do my job.
Right.
So let's anticipate that so that everybody moves up
at the same time.
So is 25% of the increase a ridiculous amount?
That's not ridiculous, 25%, but it
is a large percentage, 25%.
Or we could do maybe 10%, 15%?
So the better job I do, the less you want me to get paid?
No, not the better job that you do.
It's 15% that you weren't getting before.
Right.
And what about the remainder?
Where were we before?
Where was the company before with the 75%?
With the 75%?
Is it there now?
The 75% is not there now.
It's not 75% that we all get profit, you know?
It has to go out to overhead.
And with the added income that we're getting,
there's also added expenses.
So it would be better if I didn't do this at all?
No, I'm not saying that.
But you wouldn't be better off if you didn't do it because you
wouldn't get that 15%.
Does 15% seem ridiculous to you?
It does.
It really does.
I was actually--
I had in mind probably--
see, and I've done business in the past where
we did 50/50 deals.
So actually, a 50/50 gain, 50% for you guys and 50% for me.
Mm-hmm.
Well, you're not taking all the responsibility that we are.
I mean, 50-50 is--
I mean, that's unheard of.
Did you have this in mind before I came in the door?
No.
I wasn't thinking it, but I could
have bandied about the idea.
Well, so now that you have the idea,
you can hire somebody else to do this job?
I mean, it's--
I don't want you going anywhere, OK?
I think this is a great idea.
I do.
And I think bringing in someone else
to work under you that you train to help bring in more income,
I think that's great.
I think that's a great step.
So maybe 20--
That sounds like two jobs that I'm willing to take on.
Right.
For the price of one.
Well, I wouldn't say for the price of one.
So we're better off if I don't take
on these new additional responsibilities,
and we just leave this out.
We'd be better off just not doing this.
Of course, we wouldn't be better off.
OK, of course, we wouldn't be better off.
So I could maybe give you 20% on that new business brought in.
20%, I think that's reasonable.
I think that's fair.
And if it's not fair?
Well, I think it is fair.
And so, respectfully, it seems like you have
reasons for saying it's fair.
Yeah, I think it's a standard business practice.
I think it's the standard what's being paid right now.
I don't think you're gonna go out
there and see more than 25%.
So if we could find an outside standard to set the criteria,
you'd be happy to settle on that?
If to move the needle, it is the difference
between 20% and 25%, then fine.
It can be 25%.
That's-- but you're gonna take full responsibility for this,
and you're gonna train a new person.
I'm gonna train a new person.
I want to write a handbook for them
to operate from so they can actually be brought up
to speed faster than I was.
Well, that would be great.
That would be great then.
OK, 25%.
So the tools that I was really using there
was to get you, in your head, to think
about the losses that would occur if we didn't do this.
What's it gonna cost us if we stay in the status quo?
If we stay in the status quo, and we don't
go after this extra business--
Right.
I was feeling lost.
But you were like, well, so then it wouldn't make sense?
We're not gonna make money.
I shouldn't do it then?
Well, then I was like, oh, no.
You should, you should.
It made me feel a loss for a thing
that I haven't even gotten yet.
Right.
And to get anybody to change from the status quo, the status
quo has got to cost them.
I mean, I did feel it was fair at the end.
And then it was funny because in the beginning you came to me
and you were like, I want 25%, and I'm gonna hire a person.
I want you to hire a person to take over my job,
so that I get a promotion, and I want this money.
And then by the end, I was like, OK, I'll give you 25%,
but you better train this person.
You better hire this person to work under you,
even though that was your idea to begin with--
that I was like saying, you have to do that,
and OK, I'm getting my money's worth.
Like I took control of it, even though that's what
you initially came in with.
You felt involved.
You felt invested in the process.
Right.
And it is much your idea as it was mine at that point in time,
right?
Yeah.
Yeah, so shared ideas are the ones that get done.
And you were open to it and it was collaborative.
Yeah, then it was collaborative.
And then I wasn't--
I didn't think about--
I was like, this isn't as bad as you thought it was gonna be.
OK, very good.