1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,410 [MUSIC PLAYING] 2 00:00:07,305 --> 00:00:10,745 All right, Pam, in this exercise, 3 00:00:10,740 --> 00:00:13,330 you're gonna be my employee. 4 00:00:13,327 --> 00:00:15,907 You're the director of business development for the Black Swan 5 00:00:15,910 --> 00:00:16,410 Group. 6 00:00:16,410 --> 00:00:18,360 You handle business development, and you're 7 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,360 making about $120,000 a year. 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,750 And you've decided that you want to make more money, OK? 9 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:29,220 So you walk in, sit down, open it up. 10 00:00:29,220 --> 00:00:32,480 Hey, thanks for taking the time to meet with me. 11 00:00:32,475 --> 00:00:34,105 You're welcome. 12 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:35,640 You know, what I'm coming to do 13 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:40,020 is to ask you for an increase in salary. 14 00:00:40,020 --> 00:00:42,570 And I really would like to change 15 00:00:42,570 --> 00:00:46,680 my title from director of business development to a VP, 16 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,670 I think. 17 00:00:48,670 --> 00:00:50,860 It's kind of the natural progression. 18 00:00:50,860 --> 00:00:52,870 How much of a raise would you like to get? 19 00:00:52,870 --> 00:00:56,230 Well, right now, I'm making $120,000. 20 00:00:56,230 --> 00:00:59,740 I'd like to be at $160,000. 21 00:00:59,740 --> 00:01:01,960 $160,000, OK. 22 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,860 So I'll take a step back as a teacher. 23 00:01:05,860 --> 00:01:11,680 Most employers look at employees as selfish people. 24 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:13,496 OK. 25 00:01:13,500 --> 00:01:15,590 Because when they walk in the boss's office, 26 00:01:15,590 --> 00:01:17,840 you never come walking in the boss's office 27 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,690 unless you want something for you. 28 00:01:20,690 --> 00:01:24,100 So I'm gonna know, going in, if you made an appointment for me. 29 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:27,490 You didn't come in here to make my life better. 30 00:01:27,490 --> 00:01:29,270 You came in here to ask me for something. 31 00:01:29,270 --> 00:01:30,190 Right. 32 00:01:30,190 --> 00:01:35,260 So how do I know that giving you a raise is gonna help me? 33 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:38,820 You don't. 34 00:01:38,820 --> 00:01:41,040 You just think if you get an agreement on a price, 35 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:42,480 everything else would be lovely. 36 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:42,980 Right. 37 00:01:42,980 --> 00:01:47,190 Which is a normal reaction from most people. 38 00:01:47,190 --> 00:01:50,540 And that's how most people sink themselves in job negotiations. 39 00:01:50,537 --> 00:01:52,117 They don't walk into the boss and say, 40 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,440 hey, how can I be more valuable to you? 41 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,380 Because when you say, how could I be more valuable to you, 42 00:01:58,380 --> 00:01:59,970 suddenly that changes my perspective. 43 00:01:59,970 --> 00:02:02,710 You didn't come in here to get something for yourself. 44 00:02:02,710 --> 00:02:06,230 You actually came in here to make my life better. 45 00:02:06,230 --> 00:02:09,380 That's a game-changing moment, initially. 46 00:02:09,380 --> 00:02:11,390 Just by asking that kind of a question 47 00:02:11,390 --> 00:02:12,980 or taking that kind of an approach-- 48 00:02:12,980 --> 00:02:14,730 Right. 49 00:02:14,730 --> 00:02:17,130 --then it's immediately a different conversation. 50 00:02:17,130 --> 00:02:19,950 Immediately, you're no longer a selfish employee 51 00:02:19,950 --> 00:02:22,410 who came in here with her hand out, OK? 52 00:02:22,410 --> 00:02:24,870 You put one hand, you put two hands out, 53 00:02:24,870 --> 00:02:26,920 and willing to have one handful, you're 54 00:02:26,917 --> 00:02:28,497 gonna put two hands out because you've 55 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:30,670 been told to ask for more than what you want, right? 56 00:02:30,667 --> 00:02:31,527 Right. 57 00:02:31,530 --> 00:02:34,410 Aim high is the big lie that's out there. 58 00:02:34,410 --> 00:02:36,430 Aim high. 59 00:02:36,430 --> 00:02:41,500 Now, how much do you know about my ability to pay you? 60 00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:42,700 I don't. 61 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:44,080 You presume it's there. 62 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:44,800 Right. 63 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:45,760 But you don't know. 64 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:46,500 Right. 65 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:49,440 And you don't know how to make yourself more valuable. 66 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:50,410 Oh, right. 67 00:02:50,410 --> 00:02:53,640 So how do you do that in a job negotiation? 68 00:02:53,635 --> 00:02:55,015 You got to come in, first of all, 69 00:02:55,010 --> 00:02:58,880 and find out am I living up to expectations? 70 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,090 How have I done? 71 00:03:01,090 --> 00:03:05,110 How do I negotiate my success for the future? 72 00:03:05,110 --> 00:03:08,860 Then you start talking about what that success is worth. 73 00:03:08,860 --> 00:03:12,350 But terms make the deal in any negotiation, 74 00:03:12,350 --> 00:03:14,770 especially in a job. 75 00:03:14,770 --> 00:03:20,480 You know in advance that a lot of employers 76 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,320 might look at employees as selfish. 77 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,450 That in order to disarm that you might say, look, 78 00:03:27,450 --> 00:03:29,480 I don't want you to think I'm selfish. 79 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,580 But instead of denying it, you want to say, 80 00:03:31,577 --> 00:03:33,157 I'm gonna have a conversation with you 81 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,690 where I'm gonna seem very selfish. 82 00:03:35,690 --> 00:03:38,720 That disarms that feeling from the very beginning. 83 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,330 It also warns me that this is a serious conversation. 84 00:03:42,330 --> 00:03:45,520 OK, Pam, so let's reverse roles. 85 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,950 And I'll be the employee coming into your office, 86 00:03:50,950 --> 00:03:54,660 and you will be the owner of the company. 87 00:03:54,660 --> 00:03:56,110 OK, good. 88 00:03:56,110 --> 00:03:56,610 All right. 89 00:03:59,510 --> 00:04:01,920 Pam, thanks for making time for me today. 90 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:02,420 Sure. 91 00:04:02,420 --> 00:04:06,610 I got something that you are not gonna want to hear. 92 00:04:06,610 --> 00:04:08,850 OK. 93 00:04:08,850 --> 00:04:12,240 How can I be guaranteed to be involved 94 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,410 in projects that are critical to the strategic future 95 00:04:16,410 --> 00:04:19,110 of this company? 96 00:04:19,110 --> 00:04:23,420 Well, I think if you want to take a leadership 97 00:04:23,420 --> 00:04:28,700 role on some other projects, we should look into that. 98 00:04:28,700 --> 00:04:31,410 And forgive me, this is gonna sound very selfish. 99 00:04:31,410 --> 00:04:34,340 I'm not looking for mundane projects. 100 00:04:34,340 --> 00:04:35,900 I want to get out up front on stuff 101 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:39,200 that makes a difference on everybody's behalf. 102 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:40,850 I mean, I think that would be great. 103 00:04:40,850 --> 00:04:45,280 I'd love to hear anything that you have prepared or any ideas 104 00:04:45,275 --> 00:04:47,755 that you have on how to get there. 105 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:49,550 I'd be happy to prepare some ideas. 106 00:04:49,550 --> 00:04:51,720 What are some of our critical objectives? 107 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,520 You know, what are the top three objectives for the coming year? 108 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,200 Well, we need growth. 109 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,180 We need to bring in more accounts, as you know. 110 00:05:00,178 --> 00:05:01,968 What type of accounts are we looking for? 111 00:05:01,970 --> 00:05:04,700 Because, you know, some accounts are strategically more 112 00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:05,590 valuable than others. 113 00:05:05,590 --> 00:05:06,090 Right. 114 00:05:06,090 --> 00:05:11,510 I'm thinking more high-end kind of accounts. 115 00:05:11,510 --> 00:05:14,540 All right, so I'm gonna take a step back right now because not 116 00:05:14,540 --> 00:05:16,130 knowing the business, you don't know what kind of high-end 117 00:05:16,130 --> 00:05:17,460 accounts those are specifically. 118 00:05:17,463 --> 00:05:19,703 Yeah, I don't want nickel and dime accounts. 119 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:22,190 But how does this conversation feel to you right now? 120 00:05:22,190 --> 00:05:24,490 I don't even realize you're asking me for a raise. 121 00:05:24,490 --> 00:05:24,990 Right. 122 00:05:24,990 --> 00:05:27,080 Because I'm talking about our future. 123 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:28,490 Right. 124 00:05:28,490 --> 00:05:30,740 Now, the compensation for that will 125 00:05:30,740 --> 00:05:33,170 come after we talk about what's valuable 126 00:05:33,170 --> 00:05:34,530 and how valuable it is. 127 00:05:34,530 --> 00:05:35,030 Right. 128 00:05:35,030 --> 00:05:36,410 And there will come a time when 129 00:05:36,405 --> 00:05:37,915 I'm gonna ask for what my, quote, 130 00:05:37,910 --> 00:05:40,370 "fair share," to use the F bomb, I'm gonna 131 00:05:40,370 --> 00:05:41,630 want my fair share of that. 132 00:05:41,630 --> 00:05:42,710 Right. 133 00:05:42,710 --> 00:05:45,320 And what I'd offer to you-- and feel free to reject it-- 134 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,090 is my current salary plus a percentage of the additional 135 00:05:50,090 --> 00:05:51,510 value that's brought in. 136 00:05:51,510 --> 00:05:54,760 If no additional value's brought in, 137 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,930 then there's no additional money. 138 00:05:56,930 --> 00:06:01,220 I would like to add in, also, I'd 139 00:06:01,220 --> 00:06:05,570 like to put you in a position to hire somebody to fill my spot. 140 00:06:05,565 --> 00:06:07,945 Because if you promote me, we need somebody to do my job. 141 00:06:07,940 --> 00:06:08,750 Right. 142 00:06:08,750 --> 00:06:11,330 So let's anticipate that so that everybody moves up 143 00:06:11,330 --> 00:06:12,320 at the same time. 144 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:20,620 So is 25% of the increase a ridiculous amount? 145 00:06:20,620 --> 00:06:24,860 That's not ridiculous, 25%, but it 146 00:06:24,860 --> 00:06:28,100 is a large percentage, 25%. 147 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:33,320 Or we could do maybe 10%, 15%? 148 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,120 So the better job I do, the less you want me to get paid? 149 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:38,860 No, not the better job that you do. 150 00:06:38,860 --> 00:06:41,570 It's 15% that you weren't getting before. 151 00:06:41,570 --> 00:06:42,070 Right. 152 00:06:42,070 --> 00:06:43,330 And what about the remainder? 153 00:06:43,330 --> 00:06:44,530 Where were we before? 154 00:06:44,530 --> 00:06:47,980 Where was the company before with the 75%? 155 00:06:47,980 --> 00:06:49,800 With the 75%? 156 00:06:49,795 --> 00:06:51,005 Is it there now? 157 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,530 The 75% is not there now. 158 00:06:53,530 --> 00:06:57,560 It's not 75% that we all get profit, you know? 159 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,080 It has to go out to overhead. 160 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,810 And with the added income that we're getting, 161 00:07:01,810 --> 00:07:03,940 there's also added expenses. 162 00:07:03,935 --> 00:07:06,065 So it would be better if I didn't do this at all? 163 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:07,900 No, I'm not saying that. 164 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:12,490 But you wouldn't be better off if you didn't do it because you 165 00:07:12,490 --> 00:07:13,870 wouldn't get that 15%. 166 00:07:13,870 --> 00:07:16,250 Does 15% seem ridiculous to you? 167 00:07:16,250 --> 00:07:16,990 It does. 168 00:07:16,990 --> 00:07:17,950 It does. 169 00:07:17,950 --> 00:07:18,620 It really does. 170 00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:19,370 I was actually-- 171 00:07:19,370 --> 00:07:20,890 I had in mind probably-- 172 00:07:20,890 --> 00:07:24,010 see, and I've done business in the past where 173 00:07:24,010 --> 00:07:26,020 we did 50/50 deals. 174 00:07:26,020 --> 00:07:30,760 So actually, a 50/50 gain, 50% for you guys and 50% for me. 175 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,280 Mm-hmm. 176 00:07:32,275 --> 00:07:35,295 Well, you're not taking all the responsibility that we are. 177 00:07:35,290 --> 00:07:38,800 I mean, 50-50 is-- 178 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,440 I mean, that's unheard of. 179 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,440 Did you have this in mind before I came in the door? 180 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:45,940 No. 181 00:07:45,940 --> 00:07:48,010 I wasn't thinking it, but I could 182 00:07:48,010 --> 00:07:50,360 have bandied about the idea. 183 00:07:50,357 --> 00:07:51,937 Well, so now that you have the idea, 184 00:07:51,940 --> 00:07:53,690 you can hire somebody else to do this job? 185 00:07:53,690 --> 00:07:55,750 I mean, it's-- 186 00:07:55,750 --> 00:07:57,490 I don't want you going anywhere, OK? 187 00:07:57,490 --> 00:07:58,930 I think this is a great idea. 188 00:07:58,930 --> 00:08:00,850 I do. 189 00:08:00,850 --> 00:08:03,730 And I think bringing in someone else 190 00:08:03,730 --> 00:08:08,700 to work under you that you train to help bring in more income, 191 00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:10,010 I think that's great. 192 00:08:10,010 --> 00:08:11,980 I think that's a great step. 193 00:08:11,980 --> 00:08:15,690 So maybe 20-- 194 00:08:15,690 --> 00:08:20,100 That sounds like two jobs that I'm willing to take on. 195 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:20,910 Right. 196 00:08:20,910 --> 00:08:22,530 For the price of one. 197 00:08:22,530 --> 00:08:25,830 Well, I wouldn't say for the price of one. 198 00:08:25,830 --> 00:08:27,890 So we're better off if I don't take 199 00:08:27,890 --> 00:08:29,710 on these new additional responsibilities, 200 00:08:29,710 --> 00:08:31,070 and we just leave this out. 201 00:08:31,070 --> 00:08:32,730 We'd be better off just not doing this. 202 00:08:32,730 --> 00:08:34,910 Of course, we wouldn't be better off. 203 00:08:34,909 --> 00:08:36,619 OK, of course, we wouldn't be better off. 204 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:42,620 So I could maybe give you 20% on that new business brought in. 205 00:08:42,620 --> 00:08:44,370 20%, I think that's reasonable. 206 00:08:44,370 --> 00:08:46,110 I think that's fair. 207 00:08:46,110 --> 00:08:49,370 And if it's not fair? 208 00:08:49,370 --> 00:08:51,230 Well, I think it is fair. 209 00:08:51,230 --> 00:08:55,070 And so, respectfully, it seems like you have 210 00:08:55,070 --> 00:08:56,360 reasons for saying it's fair. 211 00:09:00,572 --> 00:09:05,672 Yeah, I think it's a standard business practice. 212 00:09:05,670 --> 00:09:08,370 I think it's the standard what's being paid right now. 213 00:09:08,370 --> 00:09:09,750 I don't think you're gonna go out 214 00:09:09,745 --> 00:09:11,845 there and see more than 25%. 215 00:09:11,847 --> 00:09:14,427 So if we could find an outside standard to set the criteria, 216 00:09:14,430 --> 00:09:16,070 you'd be happy to settle on that? 217 00:09:16,070 --> 00:09:18,270 If to move the needle, it is the difference 218 00:09:18,270 --> 00:09:21,400 between 20% and 25%, then fine. 219 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,490 It can be 25%. 220 00:09:23,490 --> 00:09:26,880 That's-- but you're gonna take full responsibility for this, 221 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:28,840 and you're gonna train a new person. 222 00:09:28,838 --> 00:09:30,128 I'm gonna train a new person. 223 00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:31,770 I want to write a handbook for them 224 00:09:31,770 --> 00:09:33,850 to operate from so they can actually be brought up 225 00:09:33,853 --> 00:09:35,373 to speed faster than I was. 226 00:09:35,370 --> 00:09:36,960 Well, that would be great. 227 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:38,300 That would be great then. 228 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:41,530 OK, 25%. 229 00:09:41,530 --> 00:09:43,550 So the tools that I was really using there 230 00:09:43,550 --> 00:09:46,520 was to get you, in your head, to think 231 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,790 about the losses that would occur if we didn't do this. 232 00:09:49,790 --> 00:09:54,070 What's it gonna cost us if we stay in the status quo? 233 00:09:54,070 --> 00:09:56,390 If we stay in the status quo, and we don't 234 00:09:56,390 --> 00:09:57,870 go after this extra business-- 235 00:09:57,870 --> 00:09:58,370 Right. 236 00:09:58,370 --> 00:09:59,340 I was feeling lost. 237 00:09:59,340 --> 00:10:01,820 But you were like, well, so then it wouldn't make sense? 238 00:10:01,815 --> 00:10:02,945 We're not gonna make money. 239 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:04,610 I shouldn't do it then? 240 00:10:04,610 --> 00:10:07,460 Well, then I was like, oh, no. 241 00:10:07,460 --> 00:10:08,810 You should, you should. 242 00:10:08,810 --> 00:10:10,520 It made me feel a loss for a thing 243 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:12,300 that I haven't even gotten yet. 244 00:10:12,300 --> 00:10:12,800 Right. 245 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,350 And to get anybody to change from the status quo, the status 246 00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:16,700 quo has got to cost them. 247 00:10:16,697 --> 00:10:18,527 I mean, I did feel it was fair at the end. 248 00:10:18,530 --> 00:10:22,760 And then it was funny because in the beginning you came to me 249 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,620 and you were like, I want 25%, and I'm gonna hire a person. 250 00:10:27,620 --> 00:10:29,780 I want you to hire a person to take over my job, 251 00:10:29,780 --> 00:10:32,780 so that I get a promotion, and I want this money. 252 00:10:32,780 --> 00:10:36,530 And then by the end, I was like, OK, I'll give you 25%, 253 00:10:36,530 --> 00:10:38,300 but you better train this person. 254 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:40,880 You better hire this person to work under you, 255 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,000 even though that was your idea to begin with-- 256 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,220 that I was like saying, you have to do that, 257 00:10:46,220 --> 00:10:48,480 and OK, I'm getting my money's worth. 258 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,590 Like I took control of it, even though that's what 259 00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:53,360 you initially came in with. 260 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:54,200 You felt involved. 261 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:55,610 You felt invested in the process. 262 00:10:55,610 --> 00:10:56,570 Right. 263 00:10:56,570 --> 00:10:57,330 Right. 264 00:10:57,330 --> 00:10:59,990 And it is much your idea as it was mine at that point in time, 265 00:10:59,990 --> 00:11:00,230 right? 266 00:11:00,230 --> 00:11:00,780 Yeah. 267 00:11:00,780 --> 00:11:03,390 Yeah, so shared ideas are the ones that get done. 268 00:11:03,390 --> 00:11:05,530 And you were open to it and it was collaborative. 269 00:11:05,533 --> 00:11:06,953 Yeah, then it was collaborative. 270 00:11:06,950 --> 00:11:07,740 And then I wasn't-- 271 00:11:07,742 --> 00:11:10,062 I didn't think about-- 272 00:11:10,060 --> 00:11:13,200 I was like, this isn't as bad as you thought it was gonna be. 273 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,370 OK, very good.